Community Forums > General > Suggestions & New Game Support > Small Balance Changes To Fix Voobly Ladder Deception

Small Balance Changes To Fix Voobly Ladder Deception

Poll: Are with these Changes ?
Yes
No
 +[VCOM RM]epsilon@voobly


Group: VCom Lead
Join Date: 21 April 2017
Posts:79
Posted 15 June 2017 - 12:50 pm


English: Spanish below
First consideration: These things you say (1,2,3 and 4) I have been listening to for some time. I keep saying the same thing from the first time I heard it.

Second consideration: My English is not good. I use the translator a lot. I can understand something wrong. I can also express my words incorrectly.

In general: It seems to me that what you say does not apply to all maps alike. Nor for the number of players on the map. It is not the same Arabia as Arena. It is not the same as 1vs1 or 2vs2.
To think of a modification, it is necessary to contemplate the existence of all the maps and game modes (In AoC RM).


(1) Sheep Story:

"(1) How many games have you lost because you did not find your sheep"


Fact:
Arabia for example:
I understand (I'm not 100% sure) that sheep are born with a maximum radius and a minimum radius (Radius = 0 is located on the TC). It is impossible for sheep to appear on the TC or appear in the middle of the map.
I do not think it's a Bug that is born farther or closer. It is true that sometimes luck helps. But the ability (like exploring with a Vill at the beginning of the game) helps that "bad luck" is reduced.
Losing 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 seconds (at the beginning of the game) finding the sheep, do not cause you to lose a Game.

Also remember that sheep are something of the map. They can not be manufactured. They can not be created. The sheep come with the map. Deciding to eat the sheep to have better economy, is the decision of the player. Let a rival find "your" sheep, it's part of the game. Nor is it a bug.

If we ask that the sheep appear easier, we will also ask that the wood has a more optimal shape. And also that gold has a more optimal shape. And so the game begins to get boring.
This is where the player's skill is displayed. This is not a Bug. It is not an error. It is a matter of luck.
Learning from the game and playing many games, make these things happen to be fun. That is, applying skill is totally solved.
Any player 1400-1500 can learn to find sheep quickly. They can also learn how to build a lumber camp in an optimal sector.


(2) Argument of the Boar:

"(2) How many villagers have you lost to boars on a weekly basis?"

A novice player can use the Loom to be able to hunt the Boar. And always send a Vill that has a full life. A player a little more experienced, can command the Vill without Loom.
It does not seem logical to change the life or the damage of the Boar.
But I agree that the Boar will do more damage to the Scout (to make it more difficult to "steal").
Also remember that the boar is on the map. It is our decision to hunt him for better economy. There is no Bug.
The Boar is not a player. Anyone can catch it.

Fact:
Arabia for example:
Rarely touches a Boar at a Critical distance. I mean a Vill with Loom can go by the boar and comes with little life.
I have seen cases where the Boar is far behind and behind a forest (something VERY unusual). In these cases a Vill with Loom arrives with life VERY low (almost dead).


(3) Argument of the wall:

"(3) Why would overrated players make use of cheap and fast built walls to win games without any effort?"

Making wall is part of the game. Complaining about a player using a lot of wall is like complaining about who plays FC. They are strategies. They are styles of games.
It is true that perhaps it is more convenient to raise the construction times of the Wall a little.


(4) Link:

"(4) Why are 14+ and 15+ a significantly good players but yet downrated?"

Remember that it is a score relative to other players.
I think with the previous points I answered this.

Spanish: original version
Primera consideración: Éstas cosas que dices (1,2,3 y 4) las vengo escuchando hace tiempo. Sigo opinando lo mismo desde la primera vez que lo escuché.

Segunda consideración: Mi inglés no es bueno. Uso mucho el traductor. Puedo entender algo mal. También puedo expresar de manera incorrecta mis palabras.

En general: Me parece que lo que decís no se aplica a todos los mapas por igual. Tampoco para la cantidad de jugadores que estén en el mapa. No es lo mismo Arabia que Arena. No es lo mismo 1vs1 que 2vs2.
Para pensar en una modificación, hay que contemplar la existencia de todos los mapas y modos de juego (En RM AoC).


(1) Argumento de las Ovejas: 

  "(1) How many games have you lost because you didn't find your sheep"


Dato:
Arabia por ejemplo:
Tengo entendido (no estoy 100% seguro) que las ovejas nacen con un radio máximo y un radio mínimo ( Radio=0 está ubicado en el TC). Es imposible que las ovejas aparezcan en el TC ó aparezcan en la mitad del mapa.
No me parece un "Bug" que nazcan más lejos o más cerca. Es cierto que a veces la suerte ayuda. Pero la habilidad (como explorar con un Vill al principio del juego) ayuda a que esa "mala suerte" se reduzca.
Perder 1 o 2 o 3 o 4 o 5 segundos ( en el comienzo del juego) encontrando las ovejas, no hacen qur pierdas un Game.

También hay que recordar que las ovejas son algo propio del mapa. No se pueden fabricar. No se pueden crear. Las ovejas vienen con el mapa. Decidir comer las ovejas para tener mejor economía, es decisión del jugador. Que un rival encuentre "tus" ovejas, es parte del juego. Tampoco es un bug.

Si pedimos que las ovejas aparezcan más fácil, también vamos a pedir que la madera tenga una forma mas óptima. Y también que el oro tenga una forma más óptima. Y así el juego se empieza a volver aburrido.
Acá es donde la hábilidad del jugador se muestra. Ésto no es un Bug. No es un error. Es cuestión de suerte.
Aprender del juego y jugar muchas partidas, hacen que estás cosas puedan pasar a ser divertidas. Es decir, aplicando habilidad queda totalmente solucionado.
Cualquier jugador 1400-1500Elo puede aprender a encontrar las ovejas de forma rápida. Ellos también pueden aprender a construir un lumber camp en un sector óptimo.


(2) Argumento del Boar:

"(2) How many villagers have you lost to boars on a weekly basis?"

Un jugador novato puede usar el Loom para poder cazar el Boar. Y mandar siempre un Vill que tenga la vida completa. Un jugador un poco más experimentado, puede mandar el Vill sin Loom.
No me parece lógico cambiar la vida o el daño del Boar.
Pero estoy de acuerdo en que el Boar le haga más daño al Scout (para hacer más difícil un "robo").
También hay que recordar que el jabalí es del mapa. Es nuestra decisión cazarlo para tener mejor economía. No hay Bug.
El Boar no es de ningún jugador. Cualquiera puede cazarlo.

Dato:
Arabia por ejemplo:
Rara vez toca un Boar a una distancia Crítica. Me refiero a que un Vill con Loom puede ir por el boar y llega con poca vida.
He visto casos donde el Boar está muy lejos y detrás de un bosque (algo MUY inusual). En estos casos un Vill con Loom llega con la vida MUY baja (casi muerto).


(3) Argumento de la wall:

"(3) Why would overrated players make use of cheap and fast built walls to win games without any effort?"

Hacer wall es parte del juego. Quej**** de un jugador que usa mucha wall es como quej**** de quien hace FC. Son estrategias. Son estilos de juegos.
Es cierto que quizas sea más conveniente subir un poco los tiempos de construcción de las Wall.


(4) Elo:

" (4) Why are 14++ and 15++ a significantly good players but yet downrated ?"

Recorda que es un puntaje relativo a otros jugadores.
Creo que con los puntos anteriores respondí ésto.


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 [NTR]NTR7


Group: Standard Membership
Join Date: 20 December 2014
Posts:3
Edited 15 June 2017 - 8:53 pm by [NTR]NTR7
Please delete, wrong account.

Poxo.
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 +[ByT]Poxo


Group: Tournament Host
Join Date: 18 November 2011
Posts:1006
Posted 15 June 2017 - 8:44 pm
I'm sorry but I'm completely against what you are saying here. Is true the map is most of the times unfair in one condition or many others, mostly resource positioning and wallability. But if you play enough games that wont matter to your rating/skill. You may lose a game due to a bad map, but you can also win it thanks to a good one.

Not having sheeps is no excuse to loose a game, of course you are going to be behind, but you can change your BO to adapt is as best as you can. Of course if you don't do anything diferent you will be behind. The same way, if you push 3 deers to your tc if you just do the same BO you are missing a great opportunity to have a huge advantage by not changing your BO.
Most of the times boars are on a 2/3 hit distance, 4 is dead in most of the cases, and if it's behind a forest there might be up to 6 hits while luring the boar. But... you can do something skillwise to reduce the ammount of hits, use your scout to disturb it or sheeps. As you can see skill can solve the dificulties of the map.
About walls, yeah they are annoying, specially if they are laid to early in game. I can respect a player walling on min 25. Palisading on min 5 sucks.

14+/15+ players have many games under their accounts, that's what make them strong on late game (On some cases) and therefore not good for a newbie community.

If you want to improve, rewatch your games and other games, don't just think why you/someone lost but how you could have won. It's very hard to find the perfect solution while in game, but if you allready know how to counter a situation you will not need to think, you will just know.
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 JoRo


Group: Streamer
Join Date: 20 October 2013
Posts:77
Posted 15 June 2017 - 8:58 pm
Solution: Play Green Arabia on Rated and make a mod for the walls.
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 RcB_JinChuriki


Group: Standard Membership
Join Date: 27 July 2016
Posts:2
Posted 15 June 2017 - 11:24 pm
oh hang on I hv a Solution
Fuc-ck u all 1 by 1
:)
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 SouFire


Group: Standard Membership
Join Date: 1 July 2007
Posts:17
Posted 16 June 2017 - 1:51 am
I don't think UP 1.5 will fix these problems, ppl have this wrong idea that lucky factors should decide a game, im probably one of the most unlucky players, so i can tell you and explain how much you lose by getting late sheeps or buggy boars, the higher the level the more it hurts, it is not about exploring or scouting, some times the map generation place your vills and scouts in the opposite side of the initial sheeps and into far distances, fur huns it affect less because you use ur vills as explorers but for most civs it delays a lot the vill production, at the start the more seconds you lose the higher the chances you get owned for being behind.

It has nothing to do with skills it is simply random stuff or merely luck, we should avoid lucky factors, but there are a lot of players that are used to steal and abuse map imperfections, so expect from them to be against it.

As for walls they should have less HP, removing walls is very invasive into all styles so the fairest solution is to reduce the HP of the palisade to half during dark age, and reducing half the HP of the stone walls during feudal age.

Currently i will support any small change that doesn't affect the strategies but help to reduce lucky factors such as map generation, the game at this state should have had minor changes years ago to reduce some OP strats to increase the game quality, staying all day behind walls because you got woods and cliffs that allow you to complete quick walls whereas your opponent can't wall or defend a single resource is totally unfair.

Sadly if you want to make any small changes there is always someone trying to get their ideas and changes and then the whole thread turns into a balance topic.
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 [xCs]Art1sta


Group: Standard Membership
Join Date: 15 October 2013
Posts:1115
Posted 17 June 2017 - 1:24 am
Its like use technology in help football referee so no way to mistake and fun of game decrease same thing to game this kinda bugs make game taste more fun
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 GregStein


Group: Gold Membership
Join Date: 4 September 2012
Posts:415
Edited 17 June 2017 - 1:56 am by GregStein
I am glad few of you have given their negative opinion on these small notes. "Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands" Clint Eastwood.

The world is not black and white. there are lots of shades of grey. There are good things and bad things in every patch that was released, and I think it's kind of very blindfolded to say one patch was wonderful, as it was wonderful, but there were a lot of bad things as well which we can work together to fix.

Read again the suggestion notes. BUT this time remove the neophobic blindfold from your eyes and try to image: Countless games you could every day Thanks to fair and good starts, not losing villagers quite stupidly... Imagine how many valid practice games you can squeeze out of this... Everybody is aware that 17+ are generally wallers. The point of this tiny wee patch is to make walls require a bit more skill or equally give walls some kind of disadvantage and notably encouraging more aggression and multitasking. Indeed these changes are dedicated to balancing things out for 1v1s played at high expert level.

I salute Jaraldo in the VCOM department for setting a good example of being an open-minded member and player in the age of empires 2 community. For he has admitted that not finding resources is a big deal most of the times. Then again Age of Empires 2 is an RTS game, not an Indie game where you need to make discoveries to make progress into the game. AOE2 is a STRATEGY game just like Chess. If you are missing one piece, you are technically set behind.

Let's first off see what has 1.5UP to offer for us, before we jump into any change.

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 Amon__Amarth


Group: Standard Membership
Join Date: 22 January 2011
Posts:1657
Edited 17 June 2017 - 2:09 am by Amon__Amarth
GregStein wrote:
...

(4) Why are 14++ and 15++ a significantly good players but yet downrated ?

- 14++ and 15++ are going to climb in the ladder fair in square thanks to (1) & (2) & (3)

As another positive result, Players who have moved in from New player Lobby will get to truly play an opponent that is not as good as 14++ and 15++.


Cause you have a bunch of high rated guys which creates tons of accounts.

These accounts ****ed "14++/15++" up and "transfer" the points to their main account.

This is may be not the main reason but a important one ...

Some players work hard for their points. You should protect them.

You should locked the limits of accounts for each player. No one needs more than 5 accounts unless he will use these accounts for cheating.

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 kwin


Group: Platinum Membership
Join Date: 21 November 2012
Posts:858
Posted 17 June 2017 - 6:16 am
Cause you have a bunch of high rated guys which creates tons of accounts.

These accounts ****ed "14++/15++" up and "transfer" the points to their main account.

This is may be not the main reason but a important one ...

Some players work hard for their points. You should protect them.

You should locked the limits of accounts for each player. No one needs more than 5 accounts unless he will use these accounts for cheating.

That's very true...

Another reason is that there is very much cheating to keep the points low, resigning while they won games is only 1 way to keep the points low...

If you make a report of someone who is doing that, you have to spend average 1 hour on it because it's not always easy to prove, the result is .... a warning for that account... (Those players don't care, they have accounts enough).
After a while, you can make a second report, spend again 1 hour of your life making it, and maybe the result is account ban. (most of those guys don't care, they take other account, or they make other account, they don't have the zero gamer problem because they are known).

Voobly should start giving Voobly bans for x days/weeks so those who do that are not able to play on Voobly anymore for a while.
That's the only way to stop this cheating, it's the only way to get better rates in the 1400-1700 area.
Those guys not only mess up rate, they also mess up the fun in gaming if you want to make even skilled teams in team games.

Maybe aka should also work below 1600...

I know this post is not going to be popular here, but I really don't care, because it's the truth...
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 MonkeyLovesYou


Group: Gold Membership
Join Date: 26 May 2014
Posts:367
Edited 17 June 2017 - 9:24 am by MonkeyLovesYou
kwin wrote:
Voobly should start giving Voobly bans for x days/weeks so those who do that are not able to play on Voobly anymore for a while.
That's the only way to stop this cheating, it's the only way to get better rates in the 1400-1700 area.

even banning inactive accounts wouldnt work because then players will start playing one game before the ban deadline on each of their accounts just to avoid ban ; same thing is already happening with 2k+ and rating decay !
also u can't ban a player for simply being innactive ,since its their right to take breaks we can't be forcing thme to play constantly

i think that limiting the number of accounts a player can have is the most suited solution (i find that having 3 accounts is more than enough except for staff members who are part of many departements and even then just 5 is enough
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 +Gallas


Group: System Operator
Join Date: 25 May 2011
Posts:2065
Edited 18 June 2017 - 3:41 pm by +Gallas
Sheep has not just a random placement in a 10-12 tile from TC (and 14-30 for other 2+2 sheep), but also can be at any direction. If you want to modify it, just learn [You must login to view link] and you can set your own spawn rules.


Wall editing need modding, but there are already some mod which change it:
- Clash of the Hippo
- No Walls Mod
- Stoneless mod
- SY Nations Cup 2017 Mod
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 ['sT]PrIMeZ


Group: Platinum Membership
Join Date: 27 January 2017
Posts:285
Posted 17 June 2017 - 10:37 am
leave the game as it is in This case :)
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 ['RB']nhoobish


Group: Standard Membership
Join Date: 8 August 2010
Posts:2934
Posted 17 June 2017 - 12:24 pm
You are right there are shades of gray, but in this case you are forgetting the rest of the spectrum, which is that in ELO ratings always 50% of the players fall below the standard rating regardless how good they are and the other 50% will be above the 1600 rating.

You must login into Voobly to view image


Here is an illustrative graph of how it all works. The base 0 in this case is the Voobly default rating - 1600. Regardless of how the players reach the bottom 50% you have to accept that 50% of the ladder pool will always be at the below 1600. And this is why the NPL ratings and Intermediate exist in the first place, so that the entry point for those ladders is more forgiving for entirely new people. By this point you should also now understand that the Medieval Siege RM - TG is meant for knowledgable players only. Why?

If Voobly has active 3000 RM players and there are 3 different ladders in place to determine their skill level, that means you have 6 separate sections which define how good a player is. These are
  • Under NPL rating
  • Above NPL rating
  • Under Intermediate rating
  • Above Intermediate rating
  • Under MS rating
  • Above MS rating
Now, by applying the ELO rating system distribution logic again it is fair to say NPL has 1000 active players, Intermediate has 1000 active players and MS has 1000 active players (in reality this is not true and NPL is overcrowded when compared to Inter section and the MS is overcrowded compared to the Intern section aswell, what I mean is that Under Intermediate rating players tend to stick to NPL and Above Intermediate rating players tend to stick to MS).

This being said in an ideal case due to the having three ladders in place the defualt rating shifts to 1400 (since 1600 and 1200 cancel themselves out). So we can consider all players above 1400 rating above average skill level from the total pool of players using Voobly. And people under 1400 rating are under average skill level for Voobly. In reality the real average rating is not exactly 1400, but I would say about +-50 or so, since the players are not equally distributed between all of the three ladders. Moreover, the players with 14++ and 15++ ratings in MS are not noobs, they are not underrated, they fit perfectly to the 5th rating section - Under MS rating, which places them pretty close to the top, overall they just lack some techniques or are getting older and older and not worrying too much of their competitiveness anymore. However, this does not mean they need to be any means babysitted by anyone, they are far more knowledgable than the rest of the 2000 players under their rating section.

Your agenda is meaningless, those players do not need/want babysitting. If you want to help someone so desparetly go help people in NPL and offer them variety and try to make their environment more secure, this is not required in MS at all, those people are capable of looking after themselves and have been playing here for a long time already. You are just confused and do not understand why they have such a rating, they have it because the entire playerbase was shifted from one ladder to three separate ladders, leaving the better ones in the MS lobby.

Oh, and this is coming from a former VCOM member, as if that matters by any means.
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 +[VCOM RM]epsilon@voobly


Group: VCom Lead
Join Date: 21 April 2017
Posts:79
Posted 18 June 2017 - 2:26 pm
You are right there are shades of gray, but in this case you are forgetting the rest of the spectrum, which is that in ELO ratings always 50% of the players fall below the standard rating regardless how good they are and the other 50% will be above the 1600 rating.

You must login into Voobly to view image


Here is an illustrative graph of how it all works. The base 0 in this case is the Voobly default rating - 1600. Regardless of how the players reach the bottom 50% you have to accept that 50% of the ladder pool will always be at the below 1600. And this is why the NPL ratings and Intermediate exist in the first place, so that the entry point for those ladders is more forgiving for entirely new people. By this point you should also now understand that the Medieval Siege RM - TG is meant for knowledgable players only. Why?

If Voobly has active 3000 RM players and there are 3 different ladders in place to determine their skill level, that means you have 6 separate sections which define how good a player is. These are
  • Under NPL rating
  • Above NPL rating
  • Under Intermediate rating
  • Above Intermediate rating
  • Under MS rating
  • Above MS rating
Now, by applying the ELO rating system distribution logic again it is fair to say NPL has 1000 active players, Intermediate has 1000 active players and MS has 1000 active players (in reality this is not true and NPL is overcrowded when compared to Inter section and the MS is overcrowded compared to the Intern section aswell, what I mean is that Under Intermediate rating players tend to stick to NPL and Above Intermediate rating players tend to stick to MS).

This being said in an ideal case due to the having three ladders in place the defualt rating shifts to 1400 (since 1600 and 1200 cancel themselves out). So we can consider all players above 1400 rating above average skill level from the total pool of players using Voobly. And people under 1400 rating are under average skill level for Voobly. In reality the real average rating is not exactly 1400, but I would say about +-50 or so, since the players are not equally distributed between all of the three ladders. Moreover, the players with 14++ and 15++ ratings in MS are not noobs, they are not underrated, they fit perfectly to the 5th rating section - Under MS rating, which places them pretty close to the top, overall they just lack some techniques or are getting older and older and not worrying too much of their competitiveness anymore. However, this does not mean they need to be any means babysitted by anyone, they are far more knowledgable than the rest of the 2000 players under their rating section.

Your agenda is meaningless, those players do not need/want babysitting. If you want to help someone so desparetly go help people in NPL and offer them variety and try to make their environment more secure, this is not required in MS at all, those people are capable of looking after themselves and have been playing here for a long time already. You are just confused and do not understand why they have such a rating, they have it because the entire playerbase was shifted from one ladder to three separate ladders, leaving the better ones in the MS lobby.

Oh, and this is coming from a former VCOM member, as if that matters by any means.

In final text you say:
Quote:
Oh, and this is coming from a former VCOM member, as if that matters by any means.

I do not understand what you mean.



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